Не от хорошей жизни

Сообщение 01 сен 2017, 20:10.

Автомат Карательный, 47 раз - а что, звучит неплохо.
to6a
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2422
Зарегистрирован:
02 ноя 2009, 19:53.


Сообщение 01 сен 2017, 20:40

А у меня норм:
Изображение
Вообще статья написана простым языком у меня гугл переводит вполне читаемо, а ведь мы с ним даже не родные.
Kosta_g
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2537
Зарегистрирован:
04 янв 2011, 21:12

Сообщение 01 сен 2017, 21:05

Вдогонку-еще один редкий образец, ноги которого, вроде бы, растут из Родезии. Что интересно- данный образец есть в "Энциклопедии" Жука, а более нигде особо не найден.
ИзображениеИзображениеИзображениеИзображение
Bell &White 84
South Africa's New Machine Pistol
Text and Photos by Brady Ridgway
R vHeOloDpiEnSgI Aan coinudnitgereendo ubsl oacrkmasd eisn dbyu sdtreyand history is repeating itself while the South Africans thumb their noses at UN interference by raising a generation of firearms innovators . Eric Bell is one of this new breed, and his latest work is the Bell & White 84 machine pistol. He was nine when he made his first crude gun. The barrel was bored out with a handheld drill. Bell has been gunsmithing ever since, but his experience is practical as well as technical . He served in the Rhodesian Light Infantry, for instance. Most recently he's been working in his own gunshop, The Gun Hospital. (Dept. SOF, 77 Harrietwood Crescent, Umbilo, Durban, 4001. R.S.A.).
The B&W84 follows the basic design concept of the Czechoslovakian Vz25. The weapons are similar in appearance when disassembled, but differ technically. As one of the first weapons to feature a wraparound bolt, the Vz25 has been the model for many modem submachine guns. One of the recent weapons apparently based on the Vz25 is the American Viking, manufactured by Weapons Systems Inc.
The wraparound bolt made the Vz25 fairly revolutionary in its day. It made the weapon considerably shorter than previous models and also allowed the magazine to be inserted through the pistol grip. This system has been the model for most modem submachine guns, including the ubiquitous UZI.
The story of the Vz25 in South Africa began with the importation of a number of these weapons in the early 1970s, reportedly through Rhodesia. Dan Pienaar Enterprises then produced a local version of the Czech gun, which became known as the Sanna 77. The weapon was a failure. Short cuts in development and inherent design failures consigned it to the scrap heap.
Bell's involvement with the Sanna came in the early stages of the weapon's development. Hired to assist on the technical side, he saw the project's shortcomings and left after three weeks.
Although he left that particular project, the Vz's design potential was not lost on Bell. He continued with his own efforts. But it wasn't until early 1984 that development began in
earnest. He molded the Czech gun around his own ideas and a little more than a year later he produced two working prototypes. Because of South African restrictions on the possession of fully automatic weapons, Bell 's first gun was designed solely for semiauto civilian sales. The second weapon has fully automatic capability as well and features a more complex actuating mechanism.
Lately the South African Police have been reluctant to issue licenses for semiautomatic weapons to anybody except border farmers . The easy- but illegal-conversion of semiauto weapons is behind this reluctance, some say. Anticipating the potentially adverse impact this might have on sales, Bell designed the B&W84 so it is extremely difficult to convert to full automatic. Such a conversion would require rebuilding of the entire trigger mechanism.
Unfortunately the fully automatic version was unavailable when I visited Bell in Durban for the test. I doubt if there is much difference between the handling characteristics of the two, but I would have been happier if the full-auto version was available. Nothing shows faults faster than 800 rpm. Field-stripping the B&W is simple and requires no tools. The pistol grip is removed first by depressing the catch in front of the trigger guard and turning it 90 degrees counterclockwise. The pistol grip and trigger guard slide off over the magazine well. The barrel is then released by pulling up on the spring-loaded catch just in front of the fore
sight and removed.
Hammer and sear are separated from the receiver by releasing a retaining catch to their rear. The folding stock is held in place at the rear of the receiver by yet another catch. The catch should be held back and the stock unscrewed. With the stock off the working parts can be slid out the back. These parts comprise the bolt, recoil rod and spring, and the ejector rod. The recoil
spring must be slightly compressed before it, the recoil rod and ejector rod can be removed from the bolt. The weapon is then fully disassembled for cleaning. It is reassembled in the reverse order.
On the weapon that I tested, the pistol grip was not very securely attached to the frame. My immediate thought was that the single attachment point was not strong enough. However, Bell pointed out that the grip on the prototype was a one-off made from fiberglass and polystyrene plastic. The polystyrene, not being very strong, had partially collapsed in places. This caused the looseness. It is planned to make the pistol grip on the production model from glass-fiber reinforced polycarbonate, thus giving it the strength it needs.
The method of attaching and securing the barrel is unique. Bell has applied for a patent. The clip in front of the front sight is attached to an oblong lug that fits into a similarly shaped slot milled into a built-up section of the barrel. When secured, there is no perceptible movement in the barrel, and it can be quickly and easily removed. The barrel support is strong, and long enough to prevent any lateral movement. If necessary the support can be removed from the receiver. It is secured by three pins positioned around the weapon in line with the front sight. These have to be pushed in before the unit can be removed.
From the front, the bore does not look unlike that of a .45. Bell informed me that he has experimented with a number of methods of porting the barrel to reduce muzzle climb. Most worked to a degree, but all produced harsh muzzle blast. He eventually settled for a simple expansion chamber, hence the apparent bore size.
The B&W84's hammer mechanism is another feature for which a patent is being sought. It is compact and features an internal spring. Some thinking holds that a simple blowback system is only practical in small caliber weapons. Bell disagrees. The B&W fires from a closed bolt and has absolutely no retarding mechanism. I am very much an advocate of the closed-bolt design and the Heckler and Koch MPS is my idea of a good SMG. A submachine gun that fires from a closed bolt is inherently more accurate. It is also much easier on my nerves when cocked. As much as I like the UZI - which was my personal weapon for some time - I am always hearing horror stories of 'spontaneous combustion. " I hasten to add that I have never had or seen an AD on an UZI. On an open-bolt design there is for me a noticeable delay between squeezing the trigger and ignition while the bolt flies forward. It also takes some practice not to have aim upset by momentum and the sudden change in center of gravity.
These problems are eliminated by the closed-bolt design. This design, however, normally requires some form of retarding mechanism, which adds to the complexity and hence the cost of the weapon. Not so with the B&W. Because it is a wraparound bolt, the bolt lends some support to the barrel and is also in a position to be an effective heat reservoir. It features an inertial firing pin and a claw-type extractor, the cause of problems during testing. More of that later.
On the Vz25 , and subsequently the Sanna 77, the ejector rod was about 4mm in diameter. This was one of the weapon's failings . The rod was unnecessarily strong for its purpose and, because of its size, its opening in the bolt face formed a pocket. This affected the angle of the spent case on extraction, and was the cause of malfunctions. The B&W ejector is about half the diameter and sufficiently strong. Problem solved. Sights are simple and fairly functional.
The rear sight is a peep sight and fixed. No complaints there. An SMG is a close-quarter weapon and more than one range setting only complicates matters unnecessarily. The front sight is adjustable for elevation and windage in large increments.
This does not allow for very fine tuning, and the sight post itself is too squat for my liking. I favor a narrower, more defined, post as the squat sight tends to obscure the target. The weapon that I tested was fitted with a Weaver Quickpoint sight. I am not very enamored with this sight. It is far too bulky, especially for an SMG, and the point of aim is not consistent. However, a variety of optical or occluded eye sights can be used on the B&W, since the weapon has been drilled and tapped to accept them. The standard stock on the B&W can be folded away under the weapon. On the test weapon, however, Bell had fitted a fixed
skeleton stock. It was designed to give him a constant cheek position and an unchanging sight picture. As mentioned before, the stock is screwed on. Bell hopes to incorporate a bayonet fitting for later models (for no apparent reason). At the moment the cost of setting up the machining to do this would be too high. Presently the magazine used is made by Beretta and holds 20 rounds. Browning magazines, with slight modifications, can also be used. Bell intends to produce his own magazines, and will offer 20-, 30- and 40-round versions.
The prototype B&W has no safety. Bell plans to put the selector on the left side of the pistol grip, behind the trigger. It will merely serve to lock the disconnector bar. The magazine release is of the lever type, and is situated at the rear base of the pistol grip. This is a comfortable position to use and superior, in my opinion, to mag releases found on the side of the grip.
The weapon is finished in a no-nonsense matte black over a baked teflon base. It seems functional and hard-wearing and the weapon that I tested showed few signs of wear.
The differences between the semiauto and full-auto versions are all in the disconnector bar, disconnector and sear. On the serniauto weapon, the disconnector bar is L-shaped. If it were to be deactivated, the hammer would simply 1ide forward with the bolt. The resultant pressure on the firing pin would not be sufficient to ignite the primer. On the full-auto version the L-shaped bar is hinged, and only releases the hammer when the bolt has returned to battery.
On the semiauto weapon, mode selection is simple. The two positions on the safety lever are for safe and fire. On the full-auto version, however, the selection switch is the same. The weapon is fired in the semiauto mode by exerting a five-pound pressure on the trigger. To fire fully automatic, the pressure must be increased to IO pounds. I do not like this system. I think it is very difficult to fire accurate three-shot bursts because of the two-stage trigger and the relatively heavy pull. Assuming that a three-position selector could not be fitted, I would rather see the semiauto function scrapped. The weapon would then be capable of firing only on full automatic. If a clean, four-pound trigger pull were then provided, it would be far more effective than the current clumsy system. When the time came to actually fire the weapon, two minor problems surfaced immediately. The cocking handle is situated on the left side of the receiver. It has a slide to prevent dirt entering the body, and is not attached to the bolt. So far so good. However, the handle itself is hinged, and when not in use lies flush against the receiver. To keep it in position, there is a circular hole just forward of the slot, and a corresponding half-sphere on the face of the handle. When
released under the pressure of the recoil spring, the bolt flies forward, taking the handle with it. The sphere returns to its niche, securing the handle. When chambering a round the increased friction stops the cocking handle short and, instead of returning to its position, the sphere stops short and catches in the slot. This results in a half-chambered round. The weapon is still able to fire in this condition. This would be dangerous, to say the least. Bell assured me that the only result of this was severely belled cases, and the weapon would actually cycle normally. I did not put this to the test. The problem should be easy to rectify, but should be put right as soon as possible. The second problem was the inordinately heavy trigger pull. I decided to test the accuracy of the weapon first and planned to fire off-hand at about 15 yards to check the point of impact before moving back. Accustomed to a much lighter pull, even on military weapons, .I thought the safety must be on when the gun would not fire. No safety! A few shots into the rear wall solved the mystery. Although the trigger has a crisp let-off, it requires the finger of an Olympian to squeeze it. Another little problem that
could easily be solved.
Once I had become accustomed to the trigger and a few adjustments had been made to the sight, I settled down to some grouping from 50 yards. Using a rest, some four-inch groups were printed. Considering the fact that the reticule of the Quickpoint obscured the bull completely, I don't think the results were at all bad. Bell claims that he managed 1,5-inch groups using a bench rest. Two of my groups actually had three of the four shots within about two inches, but flyers opened them up. Certainly no complaints in the accuracy department.
The expansion chamber definitely reduced the noise level. As to climb, I can't be sure. Personally I have never had any trouble controlling a 9mm SMG, so I don't think that a compensator is important. The weapon is relatively heavy at seven pounds, and the weight alone helps to absorb recoil and keep the muzzle down. During the afternoon about 100 rounds were fired. Bar one malfunction - which could be put down to a faulty round - the
first 70 went smoothly. After that, however, things started to go wrong. Empty cases were either jamming primer side out in the ejection port, or merely spinning around inside the receiver. Bell was clearly worried and assured me that it was the first time that he had experienced any such trouble.
Myself, I'm always relieved when something goes wrong. If everything goes too smoothly, I am always left wondering if the next round might have jammed. Besides, when problems crop up I get the opportunity to examine the weapon more critically. Bell thought that it might be the extractor that was at fault. I was inclined to agree with him. Earlier we had been testing the extractor, and had found it suitably strong. After the malfunctions, however, the extractor seemed very sloppy. We suspected that the spring needed replacing. The ammunition could also have been partly to blame, since the two lots of 50 rounds were from different manufacturers. I suspect that the second batch was a bit more powerful. That, coupled with the faulty extractor, might have been the cause. Because the weapon operates on the simple blowback principle, it may be a bit ammunition sensitive, particularly with the more powerful rounds. I contacted Bell at his shop some time after the test, and he informed me that the
extractor spring had collapsed. Apparently some locally made springs are of indifferent quality. Bell once had a batch of springs made to the same specifications. When delivered, almost all had different strengths!
As a submachine gun the B&W has potential. I don't like semiauto-only SM Gs, although this one might have a role to fulfill . In my opinion, the modern light assault rifles will one day push the SMG into obscurity. SM Gs will only have very limited, specialist functions.
Unfortunately, most assault rifles are still heavier, and more bulky, than the largest SMGs. People who live in low-intensity combat zones soon tire of an unwieldy weapon. The solution is a compact, light, accurate and lethal weapon convenient for continuous carry.
Although SMGs and the so-called semi-auto carbines only fire a pistol round, they're still preferable to any handgun. Though less compact, the longer barrel of an SMG yields increased velocity, the greater weight allows greater stability and quicker target reacquisition, and these all make for increased control and accuracy potential over range. Magazine capacity is larger as well. (Although I have seen a pistol with a 32-round magazine, the pistol needed a sling!)
The problem of getting the weapon to the production line, at the moment, is the usual one: lack of capital. South African investors have become used to white elephants, such as the Sanna 77, the Lynx revolver and the Mamba pistol. Bell is finding it nearly impossible to obtain backing.
He can get the orders if he has the manufacturing capability, and can get the manufacturing capability if he has a confirmed order. Catch-22!
Ironically, the B& W would not be expensive to produce. Bell envisages selling them for about $200 apiece. Therein lies the weapon's strength. With the South African economy in its current state and the government earning about 30 percent of the retail price of any imported weapon, prices are soaring, and imported weapons are fast exceeding anything approaching reasonable prices. It will take some refinement before I would give the weapon my stamp of approval, though. Once Bell sorts out the gremlins, then he might have a winner.
Kosta_g
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2537
Зарегистрирован:
04 янв 2011, 21:12

Сообщение 02 сен 2017, 12:33

По родезийским образцам надо Тёмкина спрашивать, он скаутов Селуса и прочую публику до тонкостей знает.
Grossfater Muller
Штабс-капитан
Штабс-капитан
Сообщения: 8313
Зарегистрирован:
27 апр 2003, 04:35.

Сообщение 05 сен 2017, 11:59

Лето 2016, предположительно -август...
Изображение
Изображение
Изображение
Изображение
Изображение
Изображение
Allexcolonel
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2753
Зарегистрирован:
17 май 2009, 12:48.

Сообщение 07 сен 2017, 12:19

Изображение
Новгородец
Штабс-капитан
Штабс-капитан
Сообщения: 8388
Зарегистрирован:
03 сен 2004, 21:02.

Сообщение 09 сен 2017, 17:18

Изображение
Изображение
Новгородец
Штабс-капитан
Штабс-капитан
Сообщения: 8388
Зарегистрирован:
03 сен 2004, 21:02.

Сообщение 09 сен 2017, 20:19

Allexcolonel писал(а):Лето 2016, предположительно - август...

Эт где? В Сирии?
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 09 сен 2017, 21:48

Донецк
Новгородец
Штабс-капитан
Штабс-капитан
Сообщения: 8388
Зарегистрирован:
03 сен 2004, 21:02.

Сообщение 09 сен 2017, 22:14

А что за второй кулемет? Не узнаю его в гриме..
Китаец?
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 10 сен 2017, 05:05

Транспортерная лента - это примерно плюс минус 1 класс.Все лучше чем ничего, да и весит меньше чем сталь ..которой на 1 класс нужно 3-4 мм.Хотя..ХЗ чем эта лента армирована..
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 10 сен 2017, 07:08

Wladim753 писал(а):Транспортерная лента - это примерно плюс минус 1 класс.Все лучше чем ничего, да и весит меньше чем сталь ..которой на 1 класс нужно 3-4 мм.Хотя..ХЗ чем эта лента армирована..

в огороде бузина, а в киеве дядька? не-е?
wam
Ефрейтор
Ефрейтор
Сообщения: 235
Зарегистрирован:
10 апр 2009, 08:59.

Сообщение 10 сен 2017, 08:22

А что за второй кулемет? Не узнаю его в гриме..Китаец?

С учётом редкости СГМТ, вероятно ПКТ с приспособленным механическим прицелом неизвестной
(просто не разглядеть) конструкции на самодельном станке...
А вот более забавный кадавр...
ИзображениеИзображение
ИзображениеИзображениеИзображение
http://eastdiary.livejournal.com/210849.html
Allexcolonel
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2753
Зарегистрирован:
17 май 2009, 12:48.

Сообщение 10 сен 2017, 12:09

wam писал(а):в огороде бузина, а в киеве дядька? не-е?

У вас? Не затруднит ответить человеческим языком, в чем я ошибся по вашему мнению?
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 10 сен 2017, 22:19

Украина.
Станок(((


Изображение
Kurt_Wolf
Старший унтер-офицер
Старший унтер-офицер
Сообщения: 585
Зарегистрирован:
04 май 2014, 04:49.

Сообщение 11 сен 2017, 05:18

Kurt_Wolf писал(а):Украина.
Станок(((

Украина. Полночь. 21 век.
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 12 сен 2017, 08:54

Wladim753 писал(а):У вас? Не затруднит ответить человеческим языком, в чем я ошибся по вашему мнению?

Уважаемый, если б вы на человеческом языке выразили свою мысль в посте на который я сослался, да еще бы указали к какому посту сей ваш ответ должен быть прицеплен и осмыслен, то как бы и не было бы моего предыдущего поста про бузину и дядьку. как то так...
wam
Ефрейтор
Ефрейтор
Сообщения: 235
Зарегистрирован:
10 апр 2009, 08:59.

Сообщение 12 сен 2017, 10:22

к какому посту

Пост #5688, а где-то ещё на странице транспортёрная лента есть?
Allexcolonel
Прапорщик
Прапорщик
Сообщения: 2753
Зарегистрирован:
17 май 2009, 12:48.

Сообщение 12 сен 2017, 22:29

Originally posted by Wladim753:

Украина. Полночь. 21 век.



Изображение
Новгородец
Штабс-капитан
Штабс-капитан
Сообщения: 8388
Зарегистрирован:
03 сен 2004, 21:02.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 09:32

Allexcolonel писал(а):Пост #5688, а где-то ещё на странице транспортёрная лента есть?

Уважаемый, а можно пальцем показать где там транспортерная лента? А то у мня увеличительное стекло расплавилось от напряжения, но так и не показало там именно транспортерную ленту.... Не, ну ежели она там за кадром расстелена где то, то конешно да....
wam
Ефрейтор
Ефрейтор
Сообщения: 235
Зарегистрирован:
10 апр 2009, 08:59.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 09:36

а-а-а, вот и не свидомый наконец то разглядел, что так обозвали то, чем обшит пепелац по бортам и по кабине.... ну о том что это транспортерная лента - еще можно поспорить (частично похожа, а частично и нет). я б так уверенно по фото определить не смог бы.
wam
Ефрейтор
Ефрейтор
Сообщения: 235
Зарегистрирован:
10 апр 2009, 08:59.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 09:50

Использование транспортерной ленты в качестве дополнительной брони не имеет никакого смысла. Защитные свойства практически нулевые. Это исключительно психологический фактор. Единственный плюс, это использование ленты как основы крепежа для монтирования блоков активной защиты.
ИзображениеИзображениеИзображениеИзображениеИзображениеИзображениеИзображение
Эту заразу так тяжело резать)) А они еще и защитные жалюзи перед радиатором из нее смастырили и вырез для ручки на двери) Хотя бензобак отчего то не догадались прикрыть.
ИзображениеИзображение
Hisname
Подпрапорщик
Подпрапорщик
Сообщения: 1176
Зарегистрирован:
19 дек 2014, 18:28.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 09:56

Изначально написано wam:
[B]ну о том что это транспортерная лента - еще можно поспорить (частично похожа, а частично и нет).
Вроде, на прикрепленных к крыше кабины кусках достаточно хорошо видна структура среза.
Ланцепок
Подпрапорщик
Подпрапорщик
Сообщения: 1159
Зарегистрирован:
23 ноя 2005, 23:28.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 10:20

Даже на некоторых новых разработках применяют фартуки из резины, но изготовители сразу оговариваются, что они предназначены для последующей установки защитных элементов (броневых пластин или блоков динамической защиты).
ИзображениеИзображение
И еще немного самодельщины:
Изображение
Hisname
Подпрапорщик
Подпрапорщик
Сообщения: 1176
Зарегистрирован:
19 дек 2014, 18:28.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 10:30

Ну как бы ее не пробивает пуля 22 лр даже высокоскоростная,у нас в тире висела такая. Пробития ни разу не видел. 1 класс с большей вероятностью, все таки лучше чем совсем ничего..Шлем пехотинца то же по 1 классу и из за того что он не держит АК от него ни кто не спешит отказываться..
В Югославии транспортерной лентой на технике ни кого не удивить было , когда там шла война в 90-е..Это было массовым явлением.
Так что ни кто не открыл тут Америки..
Транспортерная лента помимо того что состоит из резины имеет основу из арамида.
Ну а динамическая защита на БМП-2 это украинский нонсенс..
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 10:56

Попытки прикрутить что-нибудь к броне, чтобы увеличить защиту предпринимались всегда. Можно вспомнить и WW2 с бревнами, траками и мешками с песком. На мой взгляд это всё курьёзы истории. Я считаю, что если в подразделении отсутствует техника с достаточным классом защиты, следует изменить тактику ведения боевых действий, а не изобретать колесо.
Hisname
Подпрапорщик
Подпрапорщик
Сообщения: 1176
Зарегистрирован:
19 дек 2014, 18:28.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 14:23

Изначально написано Wladim753:
[B]
Украина. Полночь. 21 век.

Даже не знаю что сказать. Фото говорят сами за себя. Но понять это можно, только очутившись в таком же положении.
Kurt_Wolf
Старший унтер-офицер
Старший унтер-офицер
Сообщения: 585
Зарегистрирован:
04 май 2014, 04:49.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 15:35

Kurt_Wolf писал(а):Даже не знаю что сказать. Фото говорят сами за себя. Но понять это можно, только очутившись в таком же положении.

Этого и в страшном сне не приснилось бы еще лет так несколько назад.
Но маемо шо маемо..и от этого становится как то не очень..
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 16:25

Изначально написано Hisname:
[B]Попытки прикрутить что-нибудь к броне, чтобы увеличить защиту предпринимались всегда. Можно вспомнить и WW2 с бревнами, траками и мешками с песком.

Сетку рабицу можно вспомнить, на Т34, против фаустов.
Экран сделали, проверили, не помогает... но всё равно ставили.
Кот52
Фельдфебель
Фельдфебель
Сообщения: 731
Зарегистрирован:
11 дек 2012, 20:40.

Сообщение 13 сен 2017, 18:46

Кстати у резины на технике есть еще один прикол ЕМНИП.. что то связанное с радиозаметностью..
Wladim753
Поручик
Поручик
Сообщения: 4475
Зарегистрирован:
06 янв 2010, 08:57.

Пред.След.

Вернуться в История оружия

Кто сейчас на конференции

Сейчас этот форум просматривают: Google [Bot] и гости: 5

x

x